I had a great day today reading 60 pages, and I’m still 30 pages behind the last target! But I pledge this to ye, my deathmarching pals: You’ve all been wildly patient with me, even a certain Old Man. From here on out, particularly as we close in on the conclusion, I’ll put the good of the many above the few, and most especially the one, which means posting on Wednesday, whether I’m with the pack or miles behind.
As regards the text, I’m in the happy-reader camp — really enjoyed Dmitri’s inquisition, all the lovely spins and dips his mind does when his mouth is moving. And the boys section is off to a wonderful start. Kolya walking down the street, messing with everyone he passes, that was an extra pure joy. Next Wednesday: Let’s meet up at the end of Book Eleven, Chapter 6, where he’s making “his way to Smerdyakov again.”
(which is to say: please use this thread for comments on pages 0-612; aim to finish reading that section and shout out here by, dareIsay, the end o’ day Tuesday)
Despite the fact that I wanted to keep going because it looks like the “big reveal” is just around the corner, I made sure to stop exactly where Cecil wants us to this week. Thus I can speculate in all honesty about what I think is coming next: We’ll learn that Smerdy was indeed the murderer.
But if so, why? Initially I thought it was just about the old man’s estate. But now that we have a clearer picture of what kind of guy Smerdy is, I think it was more a matter of pure resentment & jealousy toward his father and half-brothers. Here’s a guy who’s just as much a son of Fyodor as the other three, but in the household as a servant. I’ll bet he just lived for an opportunity to mess things up for his half-brothers, making one of them look guilty for his crimes (except maybe for Ivan, who at least gave him the “time of day”).
Can’t let the anti-semitic slander put in the mouth of Liza pass unobserved (p. 583). I’d now like to think that our author included these repeated references to Russian popular prejudices about Jews to show how ignorant and uninformed they were.
Finally, apologies to our Fearless Leader for my impatience. At my stage of life I don’t have a lot else to do, so I tend to forget that you young whippersnappers have jobs, kids, & actual life demanding your time. So late blog postings are to be excused.
i confess–i don’t have your self-restraint, OMiKS, so i must abstain from comment on murder.
but what is up with Lise?? next thing we know, she’s going to be one of those nuns who subsists on orange pits and floor-gleanings. just what kind of guilt is she wrastlin’ with? is it all about a sudden passion for the unavailable ivan? or is it to do with her miraculous recovery, mentioned in an offhand way by her mom (572)? (that relationship could be a book in itself.)
speaking of medical miracles–that joke hertzenstube (i hear a whinny each time someone says his name) is being completely upstaged by the posh doctor from moscow. FD is having some fun, i think.
onward perezvon!
I tried to let it go, but Old Man pulled me back in, and appropriately so – I think I was prepared to chalk up prior antisemitic references as FD commenting on society at that time. But with regard to this most recent and particularly (blood?) libelous comment, I was struck by the fact that Liza asked Alyosha if that was true, and the chosen one says, “I dont know.” I thought Alyosha had taken the place of Zosima as the voice of faith and reason from FD’s point of view, so his casual uncertainty on this one made me think, maybe Dostovesky has an opinion about this, and isnt just making fun of the Russian people who he really does seem to love. Which makes me feel not so great about FD.
What is the Deathmarch record for most posts by one poster about anti semitism? OK, Ill stop. Next week – FD’s views on women or some other maligned group.
And yet, Im still managing to enjoy the book quite a bit, thanks to lines like:
“Life is simple for Rakitin: ‘You’d do better to worry about extending man’s civil rights’ he told me today, ‘or at least about not letting the price of beef go up; you’d render your love of mankind more simply and directly that way than with any philosophies.’ But I came back at him: ‘And without God,’ I said, ‘you’ll hike up the price of beef yourself, if the chance comes your way,” (p. 592); and
“This is not the proper place to begin speaking of this new passion of Ivan Fyodorovich’s, which later affected his whole life: it could all serve as the plot for another story, for a different novel, which I do not even know that I shall undertake.” p. 610, 611.
Thank goodness for Mme. Hohlakov! Her zany digressions which open this week’s portion are just what we need to sustain us through the stuff that follows. At least she’s consciously crazy! Everyone else, even those who had been more or less reasonable seems to have ingested loony cake.
Admittedly, Lise always was a little borderline, but now she’s launched herself into full-blown mental illness.
Even Alyosha, who seemed an island of calm in a sea of bizarro, is now proclaiming himself the voice of God. If, in fact, he’s right (not necessarily about being Vox Deo but about the content of his message to Ivan), I am about to suffer a great disappointment. I really, REALLY wanted the murderer to be Ivan — the cold-hearted creature!
However, this now seems unlikely.
And it’s looking more and more like the murderer is Smerdyakov. This is also a great disappointment, because, next to Mitya, he’s the obvious choice. What fun is that?
Here’s to a less discouraging week next week.
And just like that, we’re only three weeks from the end. Admit it, you’ll miss those crazy brothers and their antics. (Discussion question: does the title refer only to Dmitri, Ivan, and Alexei, or to Smerdyakov also?)
The passage quoted above by Ke–I mean, Mr. Magoo–leads me to believe that Dostoevsky might have had all sorts of spinoffs in mind. Dmitri and Grushenka go to America (kind of a Russian “Green Acres”). Ivan and Katerina’s crazy, passionate love affair played out against a background of war and/or revolution–that one practically writes itself. Alyosha walks the Earth, gets in adventures, like Caine in Kung Fu ir Jules Winnfield. Or how about a prequel with young Fyodor Pavlovich, showing how he got to be the way he was? It could be a musical, starring Jack Black even!
OK, I’m getting a little carried away now. As you were.
Just when I thought these characters couldn’t get any nuttier. . .
I think it’s a little odd how it’s perfectly acceptable in the world of this novel that mental illness spreads like the common cold. What was in their pirozhkis? I also think it’s interesting how fevers (which everyone seems to have in this chapter absent Alyosha) can quickly turn to fits of passion and then to turret-like outbursts of anti-semitism, acts of masochism, symptoms of schizophrenia, etc.
I like the Old Man’s theory of why he thinks Smerdy did it and think he’s right on.
Yeah I think it’s pretty clear just from this first encounter w/Smerdy and Ivan that Smerdy did it. He’s obviously toying with Ivan, and I suspect we’ll get some good explanation for how he managed to arrange it all given his “illness.” Beyond the whodunit aspect, I’m finding myself liking Alyosha more and more, and particularly liked the moment of anguish he felt over Mitya’s insecurity. There’s so much over-the-top wailing and gnashing-of-teeth and fevers, as Roxana says above, that these quiet moments get a little lost at times, but they really strike me for their emotional insight. I tend, for whatever reason–like 21st century unearned cultural “superiority”–to not want to think that earlier writers are going to portray the human psyche in a “realisitic” way, or at least a way we can relate to now, but every section of this book so far has yielded some moment, despite the years, the cultural gap, the different world he lived in, in which I just go, “Shit. Yeah.”
And madame Khokhlakov continues to provide hilarious comic relief. Alyosha’s exasperation at trying to escape her insufferable windbaggery was awesome.
Travelling and Dostoevsky do not go hand in hand, especially because of the size of the book. I am in London and am neither wireless nor unwireless.
There is no time.
Unlike Reuben, for me this week, traveling and Dostoevsky went hand in hand, and I was able to catch up, and in fact, exceed the allotment for the first time this march! (But I won’t spill the beans on the big reveal, honest.) I was in Vegas for a business meeting. Because you see all kinds of crazy stuff in Vegas, I wasn’t surprised to see three Chippendales (the strippers, not the furniture or horses, or are those Clyesdales?) waiting in line for an autograph from Pete Rose. Which made me think of gambling and washed up superstars, which made me think about the Polish baccarat players. And Pete Rose did look pretty bad, but not as bad as Dick Clark, who was also in Vegas last week even though I didn’t actually witness that visit, just heard about it.
Throughout this March, sometimes we’ve touched on Dostoevsky’s hidden meanings, including speculation about FD’s anti-Semitic comments, anti-Doctor comments, and anti-women comments. However, what struck me about this week’s reading (and part of next week’s) was the symbolism of the three meetings Ivan had with Smerdy. This reminded me of Christ’s passion, wherein Peter denies that he knows Christ three times, “denial” being the operative word here. Just my take on the “threeness” of the meetings. But I’m probably just whistling Dixiesky, especially since there were also just three Chippendales, not four, in the Pete Rose line.
I had a good day reading yesterday, helping me close the gap, but I’m still behind. Something about the inherent drama and tension in the trial made the pages turn. I’ll be interested to see how Alyosha continues to evolve as a character. I’m also eager to see how severe his penalty for parricide will be.
I still need to put deathmarch into calendar, so that I post on time. Not that one brother is better than the other, the characters we know about more seem to be the ones we root for.
Mr. Magoo, about Alyosha’s “I don’t know”: I thought it perfectly matched his character, which I admire, because instead of what we would say–of course not, that’s just a vile story, etc.–he just told the honest truth, that he didn’t know. Especially after the flights of rhetoric and/or hysteria that decorate almost every page, I enjoy his simple and direct questions and responses.
good olâ bi-polar mitya and now paranoid gruschenka. i have to admit that iâve been dropping the book for a week at a time and then reading all 50 pages in one day, and i tend to forget everything thatâs happened up until now each time i pick the book up, but i slowly get back absorbed. and the confused, gossip-loving madame khokhlakov in an attractive, but decent, deshabille. and the long name of the town, skotoprigonyevsk, appears on page 573 in a quaint aside. loves it. alyosha murmuring âtoday i need terribly to get to see my brother in timeâ trying to interrupt khokholakovâs interminable but hilarious âfit of passion.â and loony, pineapple compote-loving liza, whoâs also become quite vicious. and (oof) mitya & alyosha,with lines like âoof, these bernards! how they breed!â (of the reference iâve no idea). i must say iâm enjoying these shortish scenes with alyosha and most of the main characters, one by one in this section. and the end of this section, with the transfer of primary subject from alyosha to ivan provides some nice suspense.
So they have hired an expensive lawyer and this case is the talk of Russia. Sounds like the OJ trial. Well so much for justice!
I was a little disappointed by the scene with Lise, I don’t know what is up with her – did she fall in love with Ivan and is guilty about dumping Alyosha and is punishing herself? She was one of my favorite characters up to now but she is turning out to be too strange. I am always fooled by Dosty. I thought she was a little weir at times, but I chalked it up to adolescence. But I agree she does seem to be cracking up. I hope there will be a resolution.
And now Grushenka is turning out to be an angel after all. Go figure.
Despite the fact that I wanted to keep going because it looks like the “big reveal” is just around the corner, I made sure to stop exactly where Cecil wants us to this week. Thus I can speculate in all honesty about what I think is coming next: We’ll learn that Smerdy was indeed the murderer.
But if so, why? Initially I thought it was just about the old man’s estate. But now that we have a clearer picture of what kind of guy Smerdy is, I think it was more a matter of pure resentment & jealousy toward his father and half-brothers. Here’s a guy who’s just as much a son of Fyodor as the other three, but in the household as a servant. I’ll bet he just lived for an opportunity to mess things up for his half-brothers, making one of them look guilty for his crimes (except maybe for Ivan, who at least gave him the “time of day”).
Can’t let the anti-semitic slander put in the mouth of Liza pass unobserved (p. 583). I’d now like to think that our author included these repeated references to Russian popular prejudices about Jews to show how ignorant and uninformed they were.
Finally, apologies to our Fearless Leader for my impatience. At my stage of life I don’t have a lot else to do, so I tend to forget that you young whippersnappers have jobs, kids, & actual life demanding your time. So late blog postings are to be excused.
i confess–i don’t have your self-restraint, OMiKS, so i must abstain from comment on murder.
but what is up with Lise?? next thing we know, she’s going to be one of those nuns who subsists on orange pits and floor-gleanings. just what kind of guilt is she wrastlin’ with? is it all about a sudden passion for the unavailable ivan? or is it to do with her miraculous recovery, mentioned in an offhand way by her mom (572)? (that relationship could be a book in itself.)
speaking of medical miracles–that joke hertzenstube (i hear a whinny each time someone says his name) is being completely upstaged by the posh doctor from moscow. FD is having some fun, i think.
onward perezvon!
I tried to let it go, but Old Man pulled me back in, and appropriately so – I think I was prepared to chalk up prior antisemitic references as FD commenting on society at that time. But with regard to this most recent and particularly (blood?) libelous comment, I was struck by the fact that Liza asked Alyosha if that was true, and the chosen one says, “I dont know.” I thought Alyosha had taken the place of Zosima as the voice of faith and reason from FD’s point of view, so his casual uncertainty on this one made me think, maybe Dostovesky has an opinion about this, and isnt just making fun of the Russian people who he really does seem to love. Which makes me feel not so great about FD.
What is the Deathmarch record for most posts by one poster about anti semitism? OK, Ill stop. Next week – FD’s views on women or some other maligned group.
And yet, Im still managing to enjoy the book quite a bit, thanks to lines like:
“Life is simple for Rakitin: ‘You’d do better to worry about extending man’s civil rights’ he told me today, ‘or at least about not letting the price of beef go up; you’d render your love of mankind more simply and directly that way than with any philosophies.’ But I came back at him: ‘And without God,’ I said, ‘you’ll hike up the price of beef yourself, if the chance comes your way,” (p. 592); and
“This is not the proper place to begin speaking of this new passion of Ivan Fyodorovich’s, which later affected his whole life: it could all serve as the plot for another story, for a different novel, which I do not even know that I shall undertake.” p. 610, 611.
Thank goodness for Mme. Hohlakov! Her zany digressions which open this week’s portion are just what we need to sustain us through the stuff that follows. At least she’s consciously crazy! Everyone else, even those who had been more or less reasonable seems to have ingested loony cake.
Admittedly, Lise always was a little borderline, but now she’s launched herself into full-blown mental illness.
Even Alyosha, who seemed an island of calm in a sea of bizarro, is now proclaiming himself the voice of God. If, in fact, he’s right (not necessarily about being Vox Deo but about the content of his message to Ivan), I am about to suffer a great disappointment. I really, REALLY wanted the murderer to be Ivan — the cold-hearted creature!
However, this now seems unlikely.
And it’s looking more and more like the murderer is Smerdyakov. This is also a great disappointment, because, next to Mitya, he’s the obvious choice. What fun is that?
Here’s to a less discouraging week next week.
I also want it to be Ivan! If it is Smerdyakov or Demitri, or some combination of the two, I will be extremely agitated.
And just like that, we’re only three weeks from the end. Admit it, you’ll miss those crazy brothers and their antics. (Discussion question: does the title refer only to Dmitri, Ivan, and Alexei, or to Smerdyakov also?)
The passage quoted above by Ke–I mean, Mr. Magoo–leads me to believe that Dostoevsky might have had all sorts of spinoffs in mind. Dmitri and Grushenka go to America (kind of a Russian “Green Acres”). Ivan and Katerina’s crazy, passionate love affair played out against a background of war and/or revolution–that one practically writes itself. Alyosha walks the Earth, gets in adventures, like Caine in Kung Fu ir Jules Winnfield. Or how about a prequel with young Fyodor Pavlovich, showing how he got to be the way he was? It could be a musical, starring Jack Black even!
OK, I’m getting a little carried away now. As you were.
lise was interesting. i’m all ready for the trial. i hope we don’t get a word for word on jury selection.
hey all, sorry i haven’t read enough of our allotment to make any significant comments — will comment later in the week when i catch up. đ
Just when I thought these characters couldn’t get any nuttier. . .
I think it’s a little odd how it’s perfectly acceptable in the world of this novel that mental illness spreads like the common cold. What was in their pirozhkis? I also think it’s interesting how fevers (which everyone seems to have in this chapter absent Alyosha) can quickly turn to fits of passion and then to turret-like outbursts of anti-semitism, acts of masochism, symptoms of schizophrenia, etc.
I like the Old Man’s theory of why he thinks Smerdy did it and think he’s right on.
Yeah I think it’s pretty clear just from this first encounter w/Smerdy and Ivan that Smerdy did it. He’s obviously toying with Ivan, and I suspect we’ll get some good explanation for how he managed to arrange it all given his “illness.” Beyond the whodunit aspect, I’m finding myself liking Alyosha more and more, and particularly liked the moment of anguish he felt over Mitya’s insecurity. There’s so much over-the-top wailing and gnashing-of-teeth and fevers, as Roxana says above, that these quiet moments get a little lost at times, but they really strike me for their emotional insight. I tend, for whatever reason–like 21st century unearned cultural “superiority”–to not want to think that earlier writers are going to portray the human psyche in a “realisitic” way, or at least a way we can relate to now, but every section of this book so far has yielded some moment, despite the years, the cultural gap, the different world he lived in, in which I just go, “Shit. Yeah.”
And madame Khokhlakov continues to provide hilarious comic relief. Alyosha’s exasperation at trying to escape her insufferable windbaggery was awesome.
The brothers played second fiddle this week again, as I followed Ron Silliman around the U.K. like a groupie.
Travelling and Dostoevsky do not go hand in hand, especially because of the size of the book. I am in London and am neither wireless nor unwireless.
There is no time.
Unlike Reuben, for me this week, traveling and Dostoevsky went hand in hand, and I was able to catch up, and in fact, exceed the allotment for the first time this march! (But I won’t spill the beans on the big reveal, honest.) I was in Vegas for a business meeting. Because you see all kinds of crazy stuff in Vegas, I wasn’t surprised to see three Chippendales (the strippers, not the furniture or horses, or are those Clyesdales?) waiting in line for an autograph from Pete Rose. Which made me think of gambling and washed up superstars, which made me think about the Polish baccarat players. And Pete Rose did look pretty bad, but not as bad as Dick Clark, who was also in Vegas last week even though I didn’t actually witness that visit, just heard about it.
Throughout this March, sometimes we’ve touched on Dostoevsky’s hidden meanings, including speculation about FD’s anti-Semitic comments, anti-Doctor comments, and anti-women comments. However, what struck me about this week’s reading (and part of next week’s) was the symbolism of the three meetings Ivan had with Smerdy. This reminded me of Christ’s passion, wherein Peter denies that he knows Christ three times, “denial” being the operative word here. Just my take on the “threeness” of the meetings. But I’m probably just whistling Dixiesky, especially since there were also just three Chippendales, not four, in the Pete Rose line.
Still reading….on the road. More chatter next week. Think I’m ahead of schedule.
I had a good day reading yesterday, helping me close the gap, but I’m still behind. Something about the inherent drama and tension in the trial made the pages turn. I’ll be interested to see how Alyosha continues to evolve as a character. I’m also eager to see how severe his penalty for parricide will be.
I still need to put deathmarch into calendar, so that I post on time. Not that one brother is better than the other, the characters we know about more seem to be the ones we root for.
Mr. Magoo, about Alyosha’s “I don’t know”: I thought it perfectly matched his character, which I admire, because instead of what we would say–of course not, that’s just a vile story, etc.–he just told the honest truth, that he didn’t know. Especially after the flights of rhetoric and/or hysteria that decorate almost every page, I enjoy his simple and direct questions and responses.
good olâ bi-polar mitya and now paranoid gruschenka. i have to admit that iâve been dropping the book for a week at a time and then reading all 50 pages in one day, and i tend to forget everything thatâs happened up until now each time i pick the book up, but i slowly get back absorbed. and the confused, gossip-loving madame khokhlakov in an attractive, but decent, deshabille. and the long name of the town, skotoprigonyevsk, appears on page 573 in a quaint aside. loves it. alyosha murmuring âtoday i need terribly to get to see my brother in timeâ trying to interrupt khokholakovâs interminable but hilarious âfit of passion.â and loony, pineapple compote-loving liza, whoâs also become quite vicious. and (oof) mitya & alyosha,with lines like âoof, these bernards! how they breed!â (of the reference iâve no idea). i must say iâm enjoying these shortish scenes with alyosha and most of the main characters, one by one in this section. and the end of this section, with the transfer of primary subject from alyosha to ivan provides some nice suspense.
So they have hired an expensive lawyer and this case is the talk of Russia. Sounds like the OJ trial. Well so much for justice!
I was a little disappointed by the scene with Lise, I don’t know what is up with her – did she fall in love with Ivan and is guilty about dumping Alyosha and is punishing herself? She was one of my favorite characters up to now but she is turning out to be too strange. I am always fooled by Dosty. I thought she was a little weir at times, but I chalked it up to adolescence. But I agree she does seem to be cracking up. I hope there will be a resolution.
And now Grushenka is turning out to be an angel after all. Go figure.
Oh Cecil, where art thou? It’s early Monday morning and no new destination. Have you fallen face down in the mud?
Hiya Gloria,
There’s a new target up posted 5/6… Is it not showing up on your system? The target’s 662…..