Welcome to Week 12 and my first best opportunity to make good on last week’s pledge to be late- nae-more. Let me also declare general amnesty to anyone who didn’t have a chance to comment last week. There was hardly enough time to get the keyboard, and yet somehow, astonishingly, 17 of you did. I think, by the way, this is a Deathmarch record — I can’t recall this many marchers making it this close to the end afore. Speaking of which….. Next Wednesday: Let’s meet up at the end of Book Twelve, Chapter 1 (just a little bit less than 100 pages from the finish line), where they’re being “called up one by one.”
(which is to say: please use this thread for comments on pages 0-662; aim to finish reading that section and shout out here by end o’ day Tuesday)
24 comments for “The Brothers Karamazov Deathmarch, Week 12”
So-Called Bill
May 7, 2009 at 11:20 am
I just recently realized something odd, something that’s been subtly coloring my experience of this book without my being aware of it: Whenever I picture Smerdyakov in my mind’s eye, I’m picturing Yakov Smirnoff.
I now have a new take on Satan! He truly wants to be a pure-in-heart mortal so that he can light a candle and truly believe [in a forgiving God, I gather]. Why he needs to be incarnated into a 250-pound merchant’s wife to reach this state just adds to the ‘mystery’ :-). Of course this was all a dream…poor ol’ Ivan…
Continuing to read is not easy at this point, but it’s far too late to quit!
As Dosty sets the scene for the trial in the last chapter of this week’s assignment, I saw the media setting up their equipment for “The Trial of the Century.” I saw Johnny Cochran, Marsha Clark, and Judge Ito. Did Dmitri wear gloves, and will they fit?
The difference, of course, from the OJ trial is that here we already know the defendant didn’t commit the murder, because the real killer confessed (to Ivan) and then permanently removed himself from the stage. I suspect this suicide happens primarily for the author’s convenience, since I find it not terribly credible that Smerdy had enough character to feel remorse for what he had done.
Would Smerdy have offed himself just to make it even more likely that Dmitri would be judged guilty of the murder? I did take note of the fact that he got Ivan to remove the only tangible evidence of his involvement–the three thousand rubles. As I was reading this, I was saying to Ivan: “You stupid idiot!”
I wish to revise & extend the remarks I made last week about Dosty & anti-semitism: “I’d…like to think that our author included these repeated references to Russian popular prejudices about Jews to show how ignorant and uninformed they were.” I did some research & discovered that what I’d like to think is dead wrong. In reality, as Jon Carver writes in the research paper I’ve linked below, “Dostoevsky condemns not only the Jews, but also the Poles, the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church, the socialist idea, the West, atheism, and materialism. In fact, his contempt of the Roman Catholic Church is unparalleled in literature.” For more, see– http://community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/courses/previous/ru351/studentpapers/Anti-semite.shtml
I found the whole visit with the Devil disturbing and spurious. I’m hoping the trial perks me up soon. Other visits with the devil in literature have been far more compelling than Dostoevsky’s, in my opinion. Goethe and Milton and Dante have it all over our Russian griper. And thanks to the Old Man in Kansas for the research tidbit. Sorry, but it made me even more disgruntled…..but it’s not your fault. I’m just disappointed in FD at this juncture. But maybe I’ll get over it soon.
I didnt care fo the devil section much either, but I did enjoy a few lines and images:
“I tell you, the old fashioned doctor who treated all diseases has completely disappeared, now there are only specialists, and they advertise all the time in the newspapers. If your nose hurts, they send you to Paris: there’s a European specialist there, he treats noses. You go to Paris, he examines your nose:I can treat only your right nostril, he says, I don’t treat left nostrils, its not my specialty, but after me, go to Vienna, there’s a separate specialist there..” (p. 641). Im pretty sure I heard that bit in the Catskills. Add doctors to the list of groups that don’t get favorable treatment by FD.
“By some pre-temporal assignment, which I have never been able to figure out, I am appointed to ‘negate,’ …So they chose themselves a scapegoat, they made me write for the criticism section..” p. 642.
And I just realized that when I read about Grushy, Im envisioning Simcha, Latka’s wife on Taxi.
I am suffering deep disappointment. And, for the first time since my initial catch-up, I didn’t finish the reading because I didn’t know what it was until today. So I’m in a snit.
et tu, magooshya?? i loved the devil passage! and fd’s had it in for doctors all along–ever since he first mentioned herzenstube. well at least we are marching in synch about the nostril specialists. fd is a funny guy, and i’m really enjoying his work.
I liked the Devil passage as well. Maybe not all of it but at least the idea of it. Somehow the idea of the devil tormenting Ivan fills me with enough joy to forgive Dostoevsky for making Smerdyakov the killer. No big surprise there.
The devil scene gives us the next dose of Ivan Philosophy, but we have not had to suffer(savor?) that for awhile, so it is not so bad. It is interesting that since Smerdyakov did it, why is Ivan not working seriously to inform anyone. Does he really think that he suggested it to Smerdyakov. Also if by skipping town he was guilty, then is not the same true for Alyosha since he went back to the monastery rather than stick around where he might have been useful in preventing the murder? Taking this to its ultimate conclusion Dmitry is the only one of the 4 Brothers/half brothers not guilty. Well I dont buy it but Ivan seems to, for his part.
The courtroom drama is shaping up to be pretty exciting. The battle between the two lawyers is being set up to be interesting. And Dmitry is already trying to prove himself the kind of hothead that might do anything.
well, i’m just 3 or 4 pages from the end of the assignment and i must say this section bored me to tears. probably my mood, but it’s way heavy on heady and low on action. 🙂 that probably also says something more about me than the quality of the passage. onward.
dostoyevsky had to be smirking when he wrote “i am far from considering myself capable of recounting all that took place in court. . . .” even he is tired of all the blah, blah, blah. on to the finish!
Yeaaaaaah! Almost missed this post, since it’s categorized under “About Creativity” instead of Deathmarch. Fortunately for me, another marcher let me know the pages, and I’m with you all! Woot!
@del one very good reason for using an audiobook format for the reading. If you’re folding laundry while listening/reading, you’re still productive in your boredom.
****
whoa! sorry Kitt. Didn’t realize that. I bet that was why Gloria didn’t spot it either. Sorry for that mistake, all…. -Cecil
My Mother is always nagging at me because I am not currently registered with a doctor, and haven’t been since I went to university, six years ago.
Even though I am pretty healthy, and am not, i think, like Ivan, approaching ‘Brain Fever’, I can sympathise with Ivan Fyodorovich’s attitude expressed in these lines:
“I’m up and about, I’m still strong enough, if I collapse it’s another matter, then anyone who likes can treat me.”
It really feels like the end is nigh now.
This week I found it funny and effective at the end of the reading when Mitya is twitching all over, and having “outbursts” like “the dog died like a dog!” and “Dmitri Karamazov is a scoundrel, but not a thief!”, the response of the courtroom is so hard and cold and factual:
“a brief but edifying admonition that he should answer only what he was asked, and not get into irrelevant and frenzied exclamations.”
Dostoevsky is really good at puncturing these emotional outbursts and bringing us back down with a thump.
I loved this section, and in particular Smerdy’s tormenting of Ivan. Poor Ivan. If only he could buy into the religion thing and stop thinking, he’d be so much happier! Was surprised at the Smerdy suicide–an interesting development. Did he develop a conscience at the end? Did he know he was going to get caught? Or did the aftermath of the murder just leave him with nothing, and no reason to feel like going on?
But, a few like others here, I loved the devil and in particular the nostril line–another great LOL moment in a book filled with a surprising number of them. The devil as an cranky “get off my lawn!” old guy, pining for the simpler days.
And, finally, loved the depiction of the circus atmosphere of the trial. Dmitri as OJ! If Smerdy faked his fit, you must acquit!
A week behind, I’m taken by the novel’s exploration of “madness,” evil, “fits of passion,” and other sources of irrational, violent behavior.
“America” as seen from the perspective of Mitya and others is also interesting — a place to flee to, start over, but also a place “free” of God as the characters conceive God.
God as a human invention to create and maintain order: spoken like a true atheist.
Count me among the minority, apparently, who really liked the devil section. (Though it must be said, I am partial to him in general.) Especially the whole bit on page 642: “By some pre-temporal assignment, which I have never been able to figure out, I am appointed ‘to negate,’ whereas I am sincerely kind and totally unable to negate. No, they say, go an negate, without negation there will be no criticism, and what sort of journal has no criticism section?”
I think it’s possible that Smerdyakov killed himself purely out of spite, thinking it would cause Dmitri to be convicted and Ivan to flip his lid. Cut to clip of Khan: “From Hell’s heart, I stab at thee… For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee…”
Continue to be saddened by revelations of Dostoevsky’s anti-semitism and general unpleasantness. Often I feel like the less I know about any artist/writer/musician, the happier I’m likely to be. Would like to think of D. as the sort of person who has prejudices against groups of people and is compassionate to individuals, but that may be bending over backward.
I probably should read all the comments before I post one. There were just so many. Not only did I accidentally duplicate things the Old Man and Magoo had already said, I let M.’s Simka Gravas reference go completely unremarked upon. Not how I would picture Grushenka, but that’s a matter of personal taste. Anyway it’s just good to see Carol Kane getting some airtime on Cecil.
The Old Man and Magoo–that was a great show.
Dang dangity dang dang. I saw the “Yakov Smirnov” comment, ran off to cast “BK: The Movie” (with young Dennis Hopper as Ivan and old Dennis Hopper as Fyodor), and never came back to post my brilliance.
Oh, well, I’ll have to jump ahead a week and do something less brilliant. But I have actually kept current with the reading, if not the posting…
Okay, I’m over it. So, a day (or two) late, I’m caught up and willing to talk about it. Since I’m coming in at the end, I think all I can do is second some of the comments already written.
Put me in the camp who enjoyed Ivan’s conversations with the devil and Smerdyakov, even if I still wish that it was Ivan who did it. Particularly liked the idea of the devil as a seedy, pretty ordinary character — great theology, by the way. This is pretty much in accordance with the great Christian populizer, C.S. Lewis, who believed that devil as majestic, evil arch-fiend was neither accurate nor wise. Also liked the circus atmosphere surrounding the trial prep.
And like at least one other poster, I too wonder how it was that Smerdykov put aside his immense egoism long enough to do himself in.
I just recently realized something odd, something that’s been subtly coloring my experience of this book without my being aware of it: Whenever I picture Smerdyakov in my mind’s eye, I’m picturing Yakov Smirnoff.
I now have a new take on Satan! He truly wants to be a pure-in-heart mortal so that he can light a candle and truly believe [in a forgiving God, I gather]. Why he needs to be incarnated into a 250-pound merchant’s wife to reach this state just adds to the ‘mystery’ :-). Of course this was all a dream…poor ol’ Ivan…
Continuing to read is not easy at this point, but it’s far too late to quit!
As Dosty sets the scene for the trial in the last chapter of this week’s assignment, I saw the media setting up their equipment for “The Trial of the Century.” I saw Johnny Cochran, Marsha Clark, and Judge Ito. Did Dmitri wear gloves, and will they fit?
The difference, of course, from the OJ trial is that here we already know the defendant didn’t commit the murder, because the real killer confessed (to Ivan) and then permanently removed himself from the stage. I suspect this suicide happens primarily for the author’s convenience, since I find it not terribly credible that Smerdy had enough character to feel remorse for what he had done.
Would Smerdy have offed himself just to make it even more likely that Dmitri would be judged guilty of the murder? I did take note of the fact that he got Ivan to remove the only tangible evidence of his involvement–the three thousand rubles. As I was reading this, I was saying to Ivan: “You stupid idiot!”
I wish to revise & extend the remarks I made last week about Dosty & anti-semitism: “I’d…like to think that our author included these repeated references to Russian popular prejudices about Jews to show how ignorant and uninformed they were.” I did some research & discovered that what I’d like to think is dead wrong. In reality, as Jon Carver writes in the research paper I’ve linked below, “Dostoevsky condemns not only the Jews, but also the Poles, the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church, the socialist idea, the West, atheism, and materialism. In fact, his contempt of the Roman Catholic Church is unparalleled in literature.” For more, see–
http://community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/courses/previous/ru351/studentpapers/Anti-semite.shtml
I found the whole visit with the Devil disturbing and spurious. I’m hoping the trial perks me up soon. Other visits with the devil in literature have been far more compelling than Dostoevsky’s, in my opinion. Goethe and Milton and Dante have it all over our Russian griper. And thanks to the Old Man in Kansas for the research tidbit. Sorry, but it made me even more disgruntled…..but it’s not your fault. I’m just disappointed in FD at this juncture. But maybe I’ll get over it soon.
I didnt care fo the devil section much either, but I did enjoy a few lines and images:
“I tell you, the old fashioned doctor who treated all diseases has completely disappeared, now there are only specialists, and they advertise all the time in the newspapers. If your nose hurts, they send you to Paris: there’s a European specialist there, he treats noses. You go to Paris, he examines your nose:I can treat only your right nostril, he says, I don’t treat left nostrils, its not my specialty, but after me, go to Vienna, there’s a separate specialist there..” (p. 641). Im pretty sure I heard that bit in the Catskills. Add doctors to the list of groups that don’t get favorable treatment by FD.
“By some pre-temporal assignment, which I have never been able to figure out, I am appointed to ‘negate,’ …So they chose themselves a scapegoat, they made me write for the criticism section..” p. 642.
And I just realized that when I read about Grushy, Im envisioning Simcha, Latka’s wife on Taxi.
I am suffering deep disappointment. And, for the first time since my initial catch-up, I didn’t finish the reading because I didn’t know what it was until today. So I’m in a snit.
et tu, magooshya?? i loved the devil passage! and fd’s had it in for doctors all along–ever since he first mentioned herzenstube. well at least we are marching in synch about the nostril specialists. fd is a funny guy, and i’m really enjoying his work.
I liked the Devil passage as well. Maybe not all of it but at least the idea of it. Somehow the idea of the devil tormenting Ivan fills me with enough joy to forgive Dostoevsky for making Smerdyakov the killer. No big surprise there.
The devil scene gives us the next dose of Ivan Philosophy, but we have not had to suffer(savor?) that for awhile, so it is not so bad. It is interesting that since Smerdyakov did it, why is Ivan not working seriously to inform anyone. Does he really think that he suggested it to Smerdyakov. Also if by skipping town he was guilty, then is not the same true for Alyosha since he went back to the monastery rather than stick around where he might have been useful in preventing the murder? Taking this to its ultimate conclusion Dmitry is the only one of the 4 Brothers/half brothers not guilty. Well I dont buy it but Ivan seems to, for his part.
The courtroom drama is shaping up to be pretty exciting. The battle between the two lawyers is being set up to be interesting. And Dmitry is already trying to prove himself the kind of hothead that might do anything.
well, i’m just 3 or 4 pages from the end of the assignment and i must say this section bored me to tears. probably my mood, but it’s way heavy on heady and low on action. 🙂 that probably also says something more about me than the quality of the passage. onward.
dostoyevsky had to be smirking when he wrote “i am far from considering myself capable of recounting all that took place in court. . . .” even he is tired of all the blah, blah, blah. on to the finish!
Still with Ivan and the devil. Why does the devil speak so much French?
Yeaaaaaah! Almost missed this post, since it’s categorized under “About Creativity” instead of Deathmarch. Fortunately for me, another marcher let me know the pages, and I’m with you all! Woot!
@del one very good reason for using an audiobook format for the reading. If you’re folding laundry while listening/reading, you’re still productive in your boredom.
****
whoa! sorry Kitt. Didn’t realize that. I bet that was why Gloria didn’t spot it either. Sorry for that mistake, all…. -Cecil
My Mother is always nagging at me because I am not currently registered with a doctor, and haven’t been since I went to university, six years ago.
Even though I am pretty healthy, and am not, i think, like Ivan, approaching ‘Brain Fever’, I can sympathise with Ivan Fyodorovich’s attitude expressed in these lines:
“I’m up and about, I’m still strong enough, if I collapse it’s another matter, then anyone who likes can treat me.”
It really feels like the end is nigh now.
Oh, and So-called Bill, I can see how that could adversely affect your reading!
This week I found it funny and effective at the end of the reading when Mitya is twitching all over, and having “outbursts” like “the dog died like a dog!” and “Dmitri Karamazov is a scoundrel, but not a thief!”, the response of the courtroom is so hard and cold and factual:
“a brief but edifying admonition that he should answer only what he was asked, and not get into irrelevant and frenzied exclamations.”
Dostoevsky is really good at puncturing these emotional outbursts and bringing us back down with a thump.
I loved this section, and in particular Smerdy’s tormenting of Ivan. Poor Ivan. If only he could buy into the religion thing and stop thinking, he’d be so much happier! Was surprised at the Smerdy suicide–an interesting development. Did he develop a conscience at the end? Did he know he was going to get caught? Or did the aftermath of the murder just leave him with nothing, and no reason to feel like going on?
But, a few like others here, I loved the devil and in particular the nostril line–another great LOL moment in a book filled with a surprising number of them. The devil as an cranky “get off my lawn!” old guy, pining for the simpler days.
And, finally, loved the depiction of the circus atmosphere of the trial. Dmitri as OJ! If Smerdy faked his fit, you must acquit!
Good god. What was up with my writing, spelling, and grammar in that last post? I am a scoundrel!
A week behind, I’m taken by the novel’s exploration of “madness,” evil, “fits of passion,” and other sources of irrational, violent behavior.
“America” as seen from the perspective of Mitya and others is also interesting — a place to flee to, start over, but also a place “free” of God as the characters conceive God.
God as a human invention to create and maintain order: spoken like a true atheist.
Count me among the minority, apparently, who really liked the devil section. (Though it must be said, I am partial to him in general.) Especially the whole bit on page 642: “By some pre-temporal assignment, which I have never been able to figure out, I am appointed ‘to negate,’ whereas I am sincerely kind and totally unable to negate. No, they say, go an negate, without negation there will be no criticism, and what sort of journal has no criticism section?”
I think it’s possible that Smerdyakov killed himself purely out of spite, thinking it would cause Dmitri to be convicted and Ivan to flip his lid. Cut to clip of Khan: “From Hell’s heart, I stab at thee… For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee…”
Continue to be saddened by revelations of Dostoevsky’s anti-semitism and general unpleasantness. Often I feel like the less I know about any artist/writer/musician, the happier I’m likely to be. Would like to think of D. as the sort of person who has prejudices against groups of people and is compassionate to individuals, but that may be bending over backward.
I probably should read all the comments before I post one. There were just so many. Not only did I accidentally duplicate things the Old Man and Magoo had already said, I let M.’s Simka Gravas reference go completely unremarked upon. Not how I would picture Grushenka, but that’s a matter of personal taste. Anyway it’s just good to see Carol Kane getting some airtime on Cecil.
The Old Man and Magoo–that was a great show.
Dang dangity dang dang. I saw the “Yakov Smirnov” comment, ran off to cast “BK: The Movie” (with young Dennis Hopper as Ivan and old Dennis Hopper as Fyodor), and never came back to post my brilliance.
Oh, well, I’ll have to jump ahead a week and do something less brilliant. But I have actually kept current with the reading, if not the posting…
Okay, I’m over it. So, a day (or two) late, I’m caught up and willing to talk about it. Since I’m coming in at the end, I think all I can do is second some of the comments already written.
Put me in the camp who enjoyed Ivan’s conversations with the devil and Smerdyakov, even if I still wish that it was Ivan who did it. Particularly liked the idea of the devil as a seedy, pretty ordinary character — great theology, by the way. This is pretty much in accordance with the great Christian populizer, C.S. Lewis, who believed that devil as majestic, evil arch-fiend was neither accurate nor wise. Also liked the circus atmosphere surrounding the trial prep.
And like at least one other poster, I too wonder how it was that Smerdykov put aside his immense egoism long enough to do himself in.
Am behind but still magnet-worthy. Please believe me. Will meet up with y’all at the next stop.