Welcome to Week 3! Things swung wildly last week from entertaining and amusing to, as noted in the thread, oft-horrifying/horrible. Whether you were looking for philosophical treatises, high drama, passion, children of unknown origin, or three different forms of confession, it was all there. As I mentioned in the W2 thread, several characters and motivations have turned out to not be what I’d glimpsed on first glance (is Fyodor a clown or a monster, or a monster-clown?), all of which has left me engaged and pleasantly unsure who or what to root for.
In the thread, a few people were reading on the road, most seemed close-to-caught-up, and at least one birthday was celebrated. Church v. state was debated, as well as whether this modern world was made for such as the K’s. Many felt (and I agree) that there was something Dickensian about the flow and feel of things, particularly when Dmitri started racing us through his confessional anecdotes.
Elsethread, Sanbu offered up adam’s apple-themed verse. Off-thread, I briefly considered swapping out magnets for “I Survived the Brothers Karamazov”-themed gudgeons (though a little research revealed that magnets are much more cost-effective and easier to ship).
All in all, a rewarding and thought-provoking seven days. Thanks for joining the trek. The thread has been a real treat and a great companion along the way. And now: trailward ho!
-Cecil
Next Wednesday: Let’s lurch forward to Part II, Book Four, Chapter 3, “far ahead, without slowing down, without turning around…”
(which is to say: please use this Week 3 thread for comments on pages 0-180; aim to finish reading that section and shout out here by end o’ day Tuesday)
"…something like the supervisor of an entire team of political agents…"
Best deathmarch solution ever for getting through the material: audiobook on fast playback.
Worst deathmarch solution ever for retaining the words: audiobook on fast playback.
I think I’m going to have to read this week’s words.
I really enjoyed the first two weeks, but my wife and I had our first child two days ago, and I’ve realized that I’m deluding myself if I expect to be able to keep up with the rest of the deathmarch. Good luck to everyone else!
congrats Shawn! Feel free to rejoin down the road if you find yourself up in the wee hours, looking for a good book to read. š
-Cecil
Well here’s a situation that continues into the present: A whole discussion set off by a news item reporting an attempted forced conversion to Islam (p. 127).
And as long as we’re on religion, I find it interesting that when Fyodor wants to dismiss or put down a religious viewpoint, he accuses the speaker of being taught or influenced by the Jesuits (p. 130, 135). I wonder why he would be so aware of a Roman Catholic order started centuries after of Eastern Orthodox churches split with the Roman branch?
In reading this week’s section I came to the conclusion that Dostoevsky’s intention in the character Fyodor is to portray the textbook definition of, pardon me, as asshole. He is someone who not only rubs people the wrong way, but sets out to do so and enjoys doing so. At this point, I find myself rooting for his demise.
i love how quickly each character blossoms. in this week’s march, there’s the epileptic smerdyakov (who someone saw fit to name “son of the stinking one”) with his sociopathic tendencies and his superb cooking skills who “suddenly became remarkably old,” revealed in the space of a page or so. and there’s the unveiling, in one room, of katerina ivanovna, grushenka, and the nature of “russian feminine beauty.” grushenka’s moment of evil genius was so perfectly observed; there’s much more to katerina ivanovna, i suspect.
i will differ from others–i enjoy fyodor p. and will be sorry to see the bastard go. he attracts and repels his sons, he owns (grigory) and pwns (miusov), and he catapults all his scenes into unexpected places. and have you noticed that for all the womanizing we’ve been told he does, he has yet to speak to a woman “onscreen”? i hope to see him with grushenka. they are both tormentors, similar save for the matter of self-control–she appears to have it.
Iām with e. in developing a kind of grudging respect for nasty old Fyodor. Jerk that he is, heās the most self-aware character in the book so far, with the possible exception of the mysterious Zosima, and heās capable of surprising bouts of kindness that keep me on my toes. Thereās an essential honesty about him thatās more winning than Ivanās ironical intellect or Dmitriās transparent self-loathing: āI want to live in my wickedness to the very end. Wickedness is sweet: everyone denounces it, but everyone lives in it, only they all do it on the sly and I do it openly.ā (Fyodor to Alyosha, p. 173).
Being honest myself, Iām finding the book pretty dull. But it seems like a productive dullnessāsitting with these characters for so long while so little seems to happen forces you to see them in full. When Zosima sermonizes on ālove that is infinite, universal and that knows no saietyā (p. 164), or Father Paissy attacks āthe science of this worldā on the grounds that no other system āhas been able to create another, higher image of man and his dignity than the image shown of old by Christā (p. 171), the finger seems pointed squarely at ātwistedā (Alyosha to Fyodor, p. 174) souls like Fyodor, Grushenka, Dmitri, et al.
An image of human dignity that canāt stretch to fit a Fyodor or a Grushenka or a Smerdyakov doesnāt seem to count for Dostoevsky. The point doesnāt seem to be to reform these twisted persons via homeless shelters, prisons, anger management courses, drug and alcohol counseling, court-mandated therapy, or any other progressive āscience of this world,ā but to learn to see, and finally, love the image of dignity buried under all their conflicting whims. Not sure Iām as ready as Alyosha to do that with this crazy cast, but so far heās got me willing to keep trying.
Double Congrats, Shawn…I also had an interruption due to childbirth. My granddaughter Madeline was born on March 6th in the very wee hours about 4 weeks early. Mother, Baby, Dad, and the two big brothers are all doing fine. But here’s how the Brothers K fit into the story: 1. I read three chapters on the plane from Indy to Maryland. 2. I lugged the book to the labor and delivery room. 3. I read one chapter–out loud. 4. Note to Self: Do NOT read anything out loud to a laboring woman, especially any passages describing food or drink of any kind. Or anything by Dostoevsky. Especially to a woman who has been in labor for many hours. Especially during a contraction. (Hey, I was just trying to provide a contraction distraction, and my knock-knock jokes weren’t doing the trick.) So this week, I am getting caught up while holding crying babies. Looking forward to seeing everyone’s progress this week.
Yikes: I am distracted. I used my real name instead of my Deathmarch name: Computilo. The jig’s up.
> > >
all fixed Computilo! I’ve done that very thing myself. š -Cecil
I really enjoyed the “Over the Cognac” section. Classic heavy drinking behavior by Karamazov Sr.: when told he’s had enough, he says “I’ll have one more, and then another, and then I’ll stop.” He waxes philosophical and opens a debate about the existence of God and immortality. He gets all sloppily sentimental (“Ivan, do you love Alyoshka?”), makes up a tall tale about Zosima, then suddenly turns belligerent (“Alexei, do not love Ivan.”). It’s all very comic, but with an unsettling undertone that comes to the fore at the end when Dmitri appears.
Does this mean I’m behind on my reading? No comment.
I must admit that just the thought of listening to TBK while in labor is too much to bear. A very loving (and funny!) gesture nonetheless.
Safety post, because still I’m about 10 pages short and don’t know when I’ll see the inside of my personal computer for a few days. OK, we have a range of personalities within the boundaries of family similarity. But I’m still waiting for them to do something. All talk, no action–I could appreciate a heavy balance toward talk, but this is way past my tolerance. I got excited when Zosima went out to bless the crowd, when the group headed off to dinner at the superior’s, and when Alyoshka started creeping down the alleys… but in every case, all the “action” led to was talk.
I know, it’s early. But it’s also all I have to go by so far.
Oh, and I meant to ask: were you considering the mechanical gudgeon, or the sea-creature? or the mechanical sea-creature?
Am agreeing with most of the comments above (that’s a neat cop out, isn’t it?) But if I weren’t reading in chunks, I might not finish this one. The extreme emoting of most of the characters is tiring, especially when most of the dialog simply goes in circles. I’m personally interested in the religious discussions primarily to see how little church dogma has changed.
RaptorMage — I was thinking sea creature!
-Cecil
As I said before, I’m surprised how easy this book is to read. Although some of the discussions are going in circles, and get tiring to read at times as someone else noted, I find this is how a lot of people discussing political and religious issues tend to do it..
Still enjoying myself, but I am a number of pages behind this week..
Awesome.. when I finally click “Remember personal info?” I misspell my own email address.. š
Congratulations Shawn and Computilo for the new addition to your families…I smiled at the thought of reading B.K. to someone while in labor. I kind of wish someone has read that to me! I tend to like dark chaotic characters so am on the other side of most when it comes to the old man. Let me put it this way. He is one of the most honest liars I’ve ever met. For instance….”Just one more glass and that’s it; take the bottle away, Ivan. I was lying, why didn’t you stop me, Ivan…why didn’t you tell me I was lying?”
hm, perhaps this is a little too telling, but this fiction has me totally engaged; it’s such a joy to get lost with and discover these characters, particularly while sitting in the cramped little box i occupy most of the day (sh!). that’s really all i have to say at the moment. and that i’m easily keeping up. that’s definitely something.
My favorite passage: “That rogue Grushenka has a certain curve to her body, it even shows in her foot, it’s even echoed in her little left toe.” I like how Mitya conveys his falling for Grushenka. It’s finally making sense, this story of the engagement and why he basically handed Katerina over to his brother… he admires Katerina but could never love her as someone so much more noble than himself. No matter what Grushenka does, he just wants to hang around her, cleaning her friends’ dirty galoshes, whatever it takes to stay close!
I agree with the commentors who enjoy Fyodor. What will we do without him?
First, hearty congrats to Shawn and Computilo! Second, I, too am behind, as an upcoming show and a soon-to-be new self-owned professional endeavor have been keeping me quite busy. Third, I have also developed a fondness for Fyodor, agreeing with Rodney about his admirable self-awareness. For me, this makes him an incredibly rich and fascinating creature…er…character…well, no, creature *is* more like it, i think.
And finally, the which-line-struck-me-the-most award this week goes to one very early on in this week’s assignment, spoken by Dmitri but in my opinion he’s ghost speaking for Dosto:
“You understand the first half: it’s a drama, and it took place there. The second is tragedy, and will take place here.” (pg. 115)
It’s so shamelessly intertextual and perhaps the most direct line I’ve come across thus far…at least one of the most direct. Made me think of Rod Serling’s intros to the Twilight Zone.
I’ll catch up soon. I’m still enjoying this book a lot!
alex.
Since I have not yet finished the Week Two portion, this comment will be a complaint about the translation. Book Three, Chapter Three, The Confession of an Ardent Heart. In Verse. End of paragraph two, page 102.
Alyosha is approaching the house of Katerina Ivanovna, with trepidation, and the translator says,”a chill ran down his spine . . .” Other translations say a more acceptable “a shiver began to run down his back . . .” Our translator’s choice is the worst of the cliches.
most memorable quote for me (and should’ve posted this last week):
“There was sweet confusion,
There were tender words…”
Pavlovich is a downright scoundrel, and I have a feeling he’s going to come a cropper, next week perhaps? Smerdyakov is really intriguing, and chapters like the one about him are why I enjoy Dostoevsky.
The last chapter about the violent schoolboys came out of nowhere? Who is the badly behaved tyke who has it in for Alyosha? I blame the parents.
If you want to talk cop-out, I have to say I agree with my mom. The way-over-the-top dialogue that seems to repeat and repeat itself can get very tiresome for this reader, and the only way for me to get through it is to read in major chunks.
That said, it’s far more readable than the Pynchon Deathmarch that I couldn’t finish!
aaargh, i’ve falen about twenty pages behind but i hope to have them read by the end of the evening.
My contribution to the thread this week though, will be this image which i found on google, http://www.unc.edu/~dmarkell/kramskoy.jpg. it’s the one that is used to describe smerdyakov in the first chapter we read this week.
I think the tyke is like Dmitri–so damaged he needs to damage in return, or maybe preemptively–the old preemptive strike, which always just makes things a lot worse.
I find it very instructive to watch the way Zosima and Alyosha speak love and acceptance in return for whatever shit gets thrown at them. And yet, Zosima says they are in the monastery because they know they are the most sinful of all–“guilty before all people, on behalf of all and for all, for all human sins.” Echoes of the one who died to redeem human sins, but sinning and human as opposed to sinless and divine. And is there arrogance even in the elder?
zzzzzzzzzzzz. i’m dreaming that i’m liking it more next week.
I have to say, I have such pity for Alyosha, trapped in all this familial madness. Fyodor seems as fickle as the wind, often directly contradicting himself within a sentence and yet with so much energy. What an effort to even keep up with his verbal barrage, let alone follow his contradictory orders.
Dmitri seems to be similarly ruled by passion and whim, so much like his father in that regard.
I don’t think we’ve discovered yet what game Ivan is playing, but I suspect he is working his own angles.
And then poor Alexey, who has no devious plots and seems to wish merely for the peace and quiet reflection of the monastery. I wonder why Zosima insists that he leave and enter the world, where it seems most likely that his faith and innocence will both be left shattered.
As far as it goes I’m trying to hang on. If only there were more time…
I can’t make much of a comment this week, as I’m struggling under the weight of a huge stack of student essays. I’ve been thinking about someone’s earlier comment that this reminded them of Dickens. I think the melodrama is like Dickens, but I don’t think the characters are like his. His stuck to a type while these ones seem volatile and changeable. That’s all. See you next week.
Darn it, I wanted to be the first official death march casualty, but Shawn King beat me to the punch. There I am, belly up by the side of the road, looking at a newborn and watching all you literate souls trudge on by. Sigh. Good luck to you all — and no magnet for me!
I am caught up now – secret? I have both book and book tape (on my Ipod) -plus two airplane rides – BK keeps my mind from getting bored while waiting on the tarmack. I am really enjoying the book. I think what keeps my interest is that the characters do not do what I expect and I can’t quite figure them out, which keeps me puzzling. I think Alyosha has somewhat the same problem. He has been sent out by his elder to somehow help his family. I do not see how he can do anything to help, he does not understand them. Still he is the only one they all confide in fairly honestly (except for possibly Ivan – you never know what he is really thinking). Of course I was fooled that Grushenka was after all a beautiful angel- I wanted to believe as did Katya. Two new characters were introduced near the end of this week’s section – Father Ferapont and the 9 yr old finger biter – why do we need them?
New babies! Wonderful! And one apparently born on my own birthday. I am told that TBK was read to my mother when she was giving birth to me on that fateful day (26 years ago), which you would think would give me a leg up for this deathmarch. But alas it was not the right translation.
Enjoying the book, looking forward to upcoming plane ride to get fully caught up.
Nice post ms. magoo!
Don’t back up, I’m a few pages behind you.
Agreed with e. and the others on the “appeal” of Fyodor. Though I will also point out that I brought this up earlier on too. So it’s not like I’m copying you guys. As the book goes on, he’s becoming to me like a Falstaff or Ignatius J. Reilly in his larger than life, “force of nature” persona—and no I don’t mean they share personality traits, just in that they seem bigger than everything around them, including their own text.
Also, as a side note, let me just say that I’m glad the chapter entitled “He Gets Involved with Schoolboys” did not play out as it would if this was, say, a Gus Van Sandt movie. I’m just sayin’.
Caught up this week with minutes to spare (EDT, at least).
Gail: I’m wondering if the cliches aren’t in the original. Or, more likely, they’ve substituted a cliche in English for one in Russian. So that what we have could actually be a more faithful translation.
We’re supposed to use deathmarch names?
i see demons
Perfect timing! Iād like to thank the death march for roll through my town and sweeping me up. The Mongols just burned everything to the ground and left me cowering in the woods with nothing but the clothes on my back and, most fortuitously, the new translation of the Brothers K!
Now that Iām slogging along with you, itās full disclosure time. For those of you who donāt know me, I actually have a Masterās degree in Slavic Languages & Literature and spent much of that time studying Russian Literature. And yet, I somehow managed to do so without ever seriously studying our current text. If anyone wants the lowdown on the poetry of Afanasy Fet I might be able to help out (well, twenty years ago I could have). But Iāve only ready the Brothers K twice, for fun, and Iām looking forward to reading everyoneās thoughts and contributing my own.
This time around, one of my goals is to pay closer attention to the narrative voice and see what it might say about Dostoevskyās attitude toward his characters and subjects. I always thought Alyosha was a weak character because he was just a little too squeaky clean and two-dimensional. His brothers seem more complex and interesting. Is this intentional? Does Dostoevsky love Alyosha the way he seems to want us to? Iād like to think heās not that obvious.
This week, I had a few yuks over Father Ferapont. Obviously he is the oil to Zosimaās water and Dostoevsky seems to be poking fun at his sort of zealotry and the people who buy into it (the northern monk). He is a hypocrite. He took a vow of silence but wouldnāt shut up when the northern monk came to visit. He supposedly only ate bread but seemed to hint that he could, and probably did, gather food from the woods, which would explain his unexpectedly healthy physique. There are no miracles in Dostoevsky’s world so far. Lise is not cured, the man who suddenly came home is just a coincidence, and Ferapont is doing something other than eating the bread he is given to maintain his strength.
Father Paissy seems to be the voice of reason – possibly of Dostoevsky himself. Iām curious to see what sort of influence he might have on Alyosha later in the book. I like him. Which means he’s probably going to so something really dumb at some point.
Oh, boy. I love this wacky stuff, but some days when time is tight it ain’t easy to breeze through these characters’ speeches as they ramble on like coke heads after a coupla beers. Perhaps we can do an Elmore Leonard deathmarch next, but had we done that this time we’d be done by now and what fun is that.
I’m gonna to write a formal letter to Mr. D and request that all characters be referred to by exactly one name. I don’t think I’m out of line here.
[Sydnee’s still in Honduras this week, but I know that she’s been keeping up with her reading. I’m picking her up this Saturday! Hurrah!]
so-called “Michael Powers”: deathmarch names are entirely optional. š
-Cecil
I like D’s inventive pairing of opposite feelings, observations, etc.: the priest being nervous yet firm; Dimitri having agreeable looks and considerable physical strength but “nonetheless something sickly, as it were, showed in his face.” And “as it were”–is this phrase common in Russian, I wonder.
Tuesday night and I’m still a little ways behind, but still keeping up. Enjoing the ‘action’ scenes more than the theological discussions; this would make a good soap opera on afternoon TV. Have to ponder a title…
Enjoying the aforementioned character “blossoming” too as I try to catch up….hopefully I’ll be fully back in the game by next week.
Also, Magoo, 26 years?
Still struggling to catch up; I didn’t think this would be so hard, but a week seems to fly by (perhaps my Deathmarch status will soon be revoked). In any event, my memory of reading the book before is slowly being jogged, and I’m anticipating Ivan’s entry into the thick of things.
When he hears of the story of the Russian soldier who died “glorifying and praising Christ” at the hands of faraway Asian Muslims(pg.127), his first reaction is:
to take a sip of cognac.
His second reaction: manipulate the public relations of the story. Then monetize it: “You’ll see how people will come pouring in, and money, too.” Beneath the jocular/sacrilegious streak is a budding political career!
or maybe his own syndicated radio-rant program
-program not pogrom, but who’s sure
Still reading and am horrified/mesmerized at the dysfunction. So much has already happened that it’s astounding to think we’ve only just begun!
My link didn’t work. Let’s try this one:
http://elibron.com/support/view_im.php?fl=/u08/usr2/pview_img002/23164/8092&ft=jpg
I really liked the discussion of this picture, where the figure is described as consumed by contemplation and pregnant with potentially horrific possibility. This idea of latent energy and potential seems to come up quite a bit.
Question for this week, (courtesy of Pavlovich): What about immortality? Not even just a teeny tiny bit?
ooops – posting late again – blame it on the knee… reading, enjoying, and still marching, maybe someday I will contribute something thoughtful
I’m totally behind for a variety of reasons too boring to mention here (work work and more work-ok, I did mention them). I had to push myself to sit down and start the third week and found that I was actually enjoying more than I thought I would. I continue to feel that it’s a bit overly wordy, but I also imagine that before the internet, ipods, twitter and all that, an overly wordy novel was just the thing to keep one entertained on cold winter nights. Will try my best to keep up on the death march.
A few small follow-up comments:
– Colin’s first link did work, you just need to take out the period at the end.
– Great stuff from Bob the Ringer re: Father Ferapont. I think that the elder is sending Alyosha out into the world so he doesn’t end up like Ferapont, crawling further and further up his own butthole and being “holy” in a way that’s of no use to anyone.
– Also: Mr. Magoo is a big fat liar.
To Bob M., Try not to comment ahead of the read since you have read the book twice before. You commented on Alyosha’s “too squeaky clean, 2 dimensional” character and I was on track (as of week 3) thinking Alyosha just might turn out to be a chip off the old F. Pavlovich block. Now I’m told I’ll be disappointed. š
I’m a bit behind but happy to say that I almost caught up today, that I’m still in the march.
I’m one of the few who likes Alyosha. He’s been screwed up by the father in his own way, seeking out these elders and rejecting the family “sensualism,” but I like the innocence and how it contrasts so well with the ideologies of his two brothers. It makes perfect sense to me that Alyosha would have these qualities; I don’t see him as two-dimensional so much as sheltered, and un-beguiling.
I’m one who enjoys the theological debates, whether about immortality, the role of the church in the state, existence of God, etc. ‘D’ weaves in whole essays, in effect. I was recently reading an interview with Tobias Wolff, famous for his memoirs and short stories, less so for his novels, and he was saying how much more closely related the short story is to the poem than to the novel. It makes me wonder how necessary the extended dialogues are to character development or plot. A lot of the “extra” prose seems to be devoted to description, of Katerina and Grushenka, for example. No minimalism there — we get not only what Grushenka looks like now but how and why she won’t look that way by the time she is thirty. But it’s not mere physical description: it reflects her character and her “value” in the world of the Pavlovitches.
Next water break: page 236.
It’s been more of a slog than a march this week, but I am continuing on. I still get lost in the names.
life is full of little surprises.
I’m behind but still moving forward, approaching 120 and looking forward to a long flight this week. Missed the deadline this week, but maybe nobody will notice. Overall, I like the tale but it could certainly be improved by a decent editor… If only they had taught the Serfs to read they could have afforded one, perhaps.
Relevant thought for the week – Alyosha as Zelig…
Oh boy, I am in big trouble on this deathmarch. Way way behind. If I read the cliffnotes to catch up do I still get a magnet?
xifer: no magnets for cliffnotes — that’s the bad news. The good news: I believe in you!
-Cecil
I am a member of a Great Books Group who is reading Bros K as a part of a 2 yr series on Existentialist Philosophy. How can I partcipate in your discussions?
Hi Ron,
We’re going through at about 50-60 pages a week — Week 6 was just posted (new posts every Wednesday, with the next page target), which will take us to page 340 or so in the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation. Feel free to jump on in at any of these weeks, with the only caveat that most of us are first-time readers, so just be sure not to comment on anything past that week’s target.
Thanks and welcome!
-Cecil